See for more themes.
| Q1: Did Jesus pre-exist?
Hypothesis: Did Jesus pre-exist? Introduction: Some theories of faith say GOD is a single solitary Being. They propose when Abram was called from Ur, he was called out of a Trinitarian Babylonian concept of three main gods, into a different type of religion known as monetheism. Is this true? Is it possible the Jews never considered GOD as many persons in one GODHEAD? The reader has come here for a thorough study of the matter at hand. To be fair to those who refute the findings and evidence, only the very best evidence will be put forth. Method: The author has received over 30 emails from one who believes only the Father exists as a solitary Being, called Yahweh who is the Father of all His Creation. The Father-Yahweh created a second Adam and has empowered this second Adam with all the powers of Father-Yahweh, for salvation comes through Yeshua (Father-Yahweh's Son) via Father-Yahweh. But Father-Yahwweh is our Creator, and our Redeemer, not Yeshua (the second Adam), who is a human like us, known in Greek as Jesus. In respect to this person, and comments made between us, the author will present the best discussions. It is not the author's purpose to ridicule anybody else's theory of faith, but just to hopefully show Scriptural truth, as the author sees it. I shall try to be always fair and courteous in the presentation. Conclusion: Based on all the evidence, the probability of each reasoning within the presentation, the reader should reach his or her own conclusion. Discussion: The presentation begins here:-
Introducing : (1)Elohim means? Ge 15:7 � And he said unto him, I am the LORD "Yahweh" that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
Abram is called out of Babylon. To become a symbol of people called out of the world into God's salvation. Did God call Abraham out of Babylon because he had the wrong concept of Strong Authorities ? Such as poly-theism ? or tri-theism? Or was GOD trying to teach Abraham mono-theism ? Or maybe GOD wanted to teach Abraham about the tri-theism along different lines?
P: Yahweh has been calling many people out of Babylon, out of false Babylonian teachings, into the true faith. Many of His people have started out the door, however their foot seems to be caught on the pre-existence doctrine.
A: "Perhaps Satan in his quest to confuse people established a trinity system before Moses recorded theology in written form, because that�s what He saw in heaven, and rubbished it so badly some religions hate trinity while others embrace it? How would we know? To be fair one has to consider this possibility�"
P: "I have consider that, but ruled it out because I don�t see the trinity (as taught in Christianity � three co-equal, co-eternal persons comprising one God) in Scripture."
Summary: It is more logical to conclude Satan only imitates God's world of salvation. Maybe there has always been a system of GOD as a Family of three personal Beings, and Satan counterfeited it with a male deity, female deity and child deity; imposing sexual pagan abominations to it so in modern times, humans would loath ancient traditional pictures of trinity.
Ge 20:13 And it came to pass, when "the Elohim's" (plural plural) caused me to wander from my father's house,
Here is an example where the word "Elohim" has a plural verb used with Elohim. Because of this plural verb, we could literally translate this phrase "gods caused me to wander". Maybe Abraham considered Elohim to be a plural term all along, meaning the term represents a family of persons or several Strong Authorities?
Introducing: (2)Sent means? Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
There are many examples of where Jesus says I was sent by my Father, I came from above you come from below, and so forth. Doesn't the word sent imply a Being sends another Being, meaning both Beings have to be alive in a current state of time?
P: "John 17:18 helps us to understand the phrase "sent into the world." It reads, "As thou hast sent me into the world , even so have I also sent them into the world. " Obviously, the disciples were not living outside of this world prior to Yeshua sending them into the world. Neither should we believe that Yeshua existed in some other world before being sent by Yahweh into this world.
A: " A good point, but this depends if Yeshua was sent, has any reference to His world which is not connected to Earth�s world. Sent from the Father would imply Yeshua came from the Father and the Father�s world, would it not ? Texts which say I am from above and ye are from below, also imply a different world�"
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth
These verses suggest Jesus was a king and His kingdom was not of Earth�otherwise his servants would find�
Mt 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
"Again reference to Jesus kingdom and his servants who would fight for Him was angels, His servants."
P: "This would be more acceptable if Yeshua arrived here as a mature being (the same way he was in heaven), but no. Instead he begins his earthly existence as a fertilized egg in Miriam�s womb. To me, this is when he started his existence as a literal being. This is when Yahweh spoke him into existence. Yahweh�s spoken words and thoughts became flesh."
Summary: It is more logical to conclude that the word was with Elohim all along. Didn't the Word become flesh and dwelt with us ?
Why not just read the Scripture as it reads, in child like faith ? All the examples show when one sends one, both Beings are alive in the current state of time. The disciples were in the world once. Now Jesus calls them out of the world, and sends them back into the world with a salvation message. The verb "send" implies One Being (Jesus) sending another Being (the disciples) into the world, both Beings were alive in the current state of time, as the verb "to send" implies.
Introducing : (3)I came out... Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out "exerchomai" from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Since the word "come out" suggests things come out of other things, there is the suggestion that Jesus came out of the Father, as a seed comes out of a mother who is carrying her future children. Certainly the Bible speaks of future descendants in the loins of the person carrying future generations.
A: "One needs to relate the Greek word "exerchomai" (Strong 1831) back to the language the text was originally written in, Hebrew "yatsa" (Strong 3318).
I show contexts where to come forth, can relate to a person being born from out of another person in lineage, or descent�so that might be a possibility�that Jesus came forth from His Father�.but it could also simply mean that Jesus went forth from His Father as a Being that always was. This also is another possibility�.
P: "In this case, Yeshua existed "inside" of Yahweh in a similar sense that Levi existed inside the "loins of his father" before he was born (Hebrews 7:5-10). In that passage, Levi was not born yet, nor was his father Jacob. Yet, Levi was said to be in Abraham's loins (in the sense of future lineage). (The lineage of Messiah is spoken of in Micah 5:2 and it traces all the way back to his Father Yahweh). )"
A: "If you look at all the references to loins, it is clearly a Hebrew idiom, and thus we have to understand the culture of the Hebrews who wrote this�
Isa 45:1 � Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings,�
The lineage of Messiah might be a reference to his humanity, from the loins of a person, whereas his divinity always existed. One was to consider this as a possibility.
P: "Yeshua declared this truth in John 16:27-30 as well. "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from [Yahweh]
A: "The Greek in John 16:27 does not say Jesus came out of Yahweh, but that Jesus came from Elohiym .
I came out �exerchomai� from God �theos�. The Greek word �theos� does not equate with �YHWH� is equates with �elohim� . Secondly the broad meaning of to come out, the Greek word does not mean from inside another person �
Grk:1831 �exerchomai� (verb): Go out used 222 times equates to Hebrew 3318 , to go out, or issue forth.
Ex 1:5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt.
Does this idiom imply that Jacob had 70 souls within in? and in what capacity ?
Summary: When one builds a doctrine theme about something, one has to consider all the other passages and themes relating to this theme and consider Bible texts across all themes, otherwise you could prove just about any thing. See studies how the Bible says the Bible should be studied , across two chapters of instructions.
Introducing : (4)Spiritual Rock... 1Co 10:1 � Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Paul quotes from Exodus 16:6. The rock mentioned in the verse is "tsuwr" rock, a symbol of the Father. So it seems we have a problem proving Christ as SECOND rock that followed them. But in Psalm 78:15-16 it says the "cela" rock, a symbol of Christ; also followed them !
Ps 78:15 He clave the rocks "tsuwr" in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the great depths. 16 He brought streams also out of the rock "cela" , and caused waters to run down like rivers.
Ex 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock "tsuwr" in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock "tsuwr", and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink.
This is perhaps the greatest proof Jesus was in the Old Testament, because it uses Hebrew words not considered by any major religious denomination in the world on the Internet. Therefore religions who attack the divinity of Christ, use older methods of attack, not this newer proof hidden in Hebrew Scriptures.
A: "If Paul is speaking literally ( which Hebrew people always did, the literals were symbolic of spiritual application) than Jesus also helped in leading the children of Israel out of Egypt. Is there a reference to a literal spiritual rock ?"
P: " This verse must be understood with Ex.17:6 in mind; "Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel." 1 Cor. 10:4 is figuratively making reference to Ex.17:6 which is a shadow of Messiah"
A: "There are two Hebrew rocks that went with the Exodus, tsuwr and cela...�both refer to different powers of members within Elohiym."
P: "You are trying to make a shadow �rock� into a �reality� rock. The rock of Ex 17:6 is a literal rock that was a shadow of a reality that would come in the future when Messiah was struck and died allowing the Holy Spirit to pour out to us. The �reality� was not yet existing."
A: "Do you want a picture of the ancient site today, water flowed at the site once in times past ?"
P: "I agree that literal water once flowed out of that literal rock in the past."
A: "The Father must be tsuwr. Yeshua is cela"
P: "I agree the Father is Tsuwr and that Yeshua is cela. They are both my rocks. In De 32:15, the Rock is the Father. In 1 Cor.10:4, the Rock is Yeshua. However, Yeshua was not a literally existing Rock in the OT. He was only a Rock through types and shadows."
A: "A symbol always points to a literal"
P: "In Ex 33:21, �rock� is not a symbol. It is just a literal rock that happened to be nearby. You are trying to make the literal into a symbol.
Here is another example:
Jdg 7:25 And they took two princes of the Midianites, Oreb and Zeeb; and they slew Oreb upon the rock (tsuwr) Oreb, and Zeeb they slew at the winepress of Zeeb, and pursued Midian, and brought the heads of Oreb and Zeeb to Gideon on the other side Jordan.
�Rock� in this verse is nothing more than a literal rock. We should not be trying to spiritualize everything in Scripture, especially when it comes to trying to make Yeshua pre-exist by reading him into the OT as a literal being instead of seeing him there through types and shadows".
One can a see the point raised here. But if the context of "tsuwr" is about the heavenly, the it refers to the heavenly Father, that's how symbols work for the common and the divine does it not, in poetry?
Ps 62:2 He only is my rock And if Paul says a "spiritual rock" followed them, we can go back in Exodus and look for that literal context even though it's a spiritual application.
Summary: There seems some confusion what "spiritual" means. Paul says the spiritual Rock followed them, and that Rock was Christ. Reading the text simply, Paul is speaking literally, he is not speaking figuratively. The Rock that followed them represented Christ. And Scripture bears out that two rocks followed them.
Introducing : (5)Loving alone...
1Jo 4:8 God "Elohim" is love "Ahab".
This point is about the moral law of love. We know that Elohim is outside of time, space and matter, beyond natural laws, which is why Elohim (or GOD) can do natural miracles. But the moral law of love GOD must be always doing. So how does GOD do this moral law if GOD is one solitary Being? Before Creation there would have been nothing to love, except one's self. Pride is a sin, between two other Beings when one of those Beings loves only himself excluding the sharing of that love with the other Being.
So if no other Beings are present, how can the heavenly Father love?
And if there is nothing to love except Creation and created Beings, then this moral law of love is a moral law only applicable to creation, thus GOD is not subject to natural law or moral law. But the Bible says GOD is love. And notice love is not a single concept in Scripture. Love is a relationship concept involving family. See studies of maleness-love and femaleness-love So how can you relate to other Beings, if you're the only Being there is ?
A: "This is not philosophy at all, it is a very deep and important discussion of GOD"
P: "When I say �philosophy�, I am referring to the introduction of man-made ideas to explain a particular viewpoint. For example, for you to say, �But if ELOAH was a single character flavoured with three personalities from eternity, you have before the angels came to be, a single character with three personalities of love, one which provides, one which nurtures and one which responds.�, is to me philosophy because you are trying to understand �Eloah� in terms that the Scriptures do not use or teach."
A: "How can you rationale this verse where it is saying the Father loved Jesus before the earth ever existed..�? How can a Father love something who doesn't exist, as you claim.�"
P: "Yeshua was only the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world in Yahweh�s plan of salvation. He knew His Son would die for the sins of the world before the world was created. Why did Yahweh predestine Yeshua to die?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Yahweh planned for His Son to die because He loved the world, including its inhabitants. Yahweh had to love them before they were created in order to plan for His Son to die for them.
In other words, I am trying to show you that Yahweh could love before there were any people to love. If He could love the world and us before we existed, then He could also love Yeshua before He existed."
A: "How can one Being lay claim to care for others if He can't show care with Himself�He has no other kind to show love with..�Your suggesting that my love is purely demonstrated by the care I show to my dogs....but I am saying true love is demonstrated only within the same kind, ie my wife and my children"
P: "You cannot equate human love with the Yahweh�s love. We are incapable of loving someone who doesn�t exist, but Yahweh can because He knows the future. He knew you would one day exist, so He was able to love you before your birth. You did not know your children would someday exist, therefore you could not love your children beforehand."
A: "How can one Being lay claim to care for others if He can't show love billions of years ago, before a human son Yeshua existed, before any Angels existed, before even time and space existed?
Muslim's see One God, and a prophetic Son, Yeshua, a special human.
So before this uncaused Cause made matter, time and space, He made LAWS....these Laws demand love in relationships...so where is your objects of love for these Laws to describe?
You could say the Laws describe love only after objects were made in time and space, but this does not make GOD a source of love, only a catalyst for describing love once it came into being.
P: "Love has always existed in the Father because He IS love."
A: "I suggest that the uncaused Cause in order to demonstrate LAW's that came with the uncaused Cause would have to have been three relational Beings of LOVE in order to demonstrate Love as functional Law. The smallest unit of love is Family, with a provider, nurturer and responder. An eternal single family demonstrates social law, love laws, relationship and moral law."
P: "In terms of humans, the smallest unit of love is a husband and wife. Two are needed, not three. Both husband and wife are providers, nurturers and responders to each other. Yahweh was all three by Himself. He provided a creation for the world He loved. He nurtured that creation before man existed. He responded to the world�s fall before they fell by including a slain lamb in His plan of salvation."
A: "When the uncaused Cause created matter, space and time, physical laws took hold of additional dimensions, such as time, chaos and order, gravity, and material creation, these things are not a part of God, but love is.�Therefore LOVE must be functional BEFORE the creation of time, matter and space."
P: "I agree that love was functioning before creation. Not between Yahweh, Yeshua and the Holy Spirit, but all within Father Yahweh Himself."
Summary: How can the heavenly Father alone as a solitary Being called Yahweh demonstrate love if nothing else existed? I believe the Bible is a poetry illustration of explaining heavenly things to us as a people of the earth, therefore you would expect the earthly pictures to be a shadowy picture of the heavenly, even though we might see darkly...but a picture nevertheless. We have these 'pictures' in Genesis during creation of mankind...
therefore we can expect Genesis to be a picture of the heavenly Elohim
This implies, heavenly Elohim is a 'kind', in which the Hebrew word "adam" is also a 'kind': comprised of different personalities of love, maleness-love and femaleness-love. This compound unity of personalities forms the family unit in which love is shared and expressed between relational beings.
The discussion continues with the Author submitting proof Jesus has always been with GOD in heaven.
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