See for more themes.
| Q2: Is Love relational or solitary? Hypothesis: Is the Father all alone? Introduction: Jewish religion assumes Yahweh is alone. The Holy Spirit is simply a windy force of the Father, an extension of His creative power through which the Father projects Himself throughout nature. The Son of Man, Jesus; was created by the Father, and empowered salvation via Jesus, by the Father, the agency of all power. Does Scripture uphold this concept of GOD? This study will investigate all the best arguments about whether the Father exists alone, or exists as a single Family of personal Beings. Method: See selected passages, arguments and debates shown to the reader. Discussion: (1) In the beginning before time, space and matter, there had to be an uncaused cause...that chose to bring everything into being. This uncaused cause is eternal and consists of mind. Some religious faiths assume this mind to be a single entity.
God lives under His own law. This law describes how GOD is and acts and relates to His own being. Notice this law in the Bible does not describe matter but mind.
Ex 20:2 I am Yahweh thy Elohim, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other Elohim before me. What does this first arrangement of words mean ?
Ho 13:4 Yet I am Yahweh thy Elohim from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no Elohim but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Notice something's here is this parallel statement elsewhere in Scripture. In Exodus the Elohim brings them out from Egypt, and says have no other Elohim before me. In the second parallel, Elohim is from the land of Egypt, and says know no other Elohim but me, no Saviour but me. If GOD saves people from Egypt and is of Egypt as our Saviour, the model for Elohim is a typology of Egypt from which Elohim spoke, saying thou shall know no Elohim but me, no Saviour but me.
So the first arrangement of words is saying "I AM your SAVIOUR" have no other Saviour but me. So what is this first law about ? A mind. That claims to want to save you. You have to be humble to accept this salvation, or proud to oppose this Mind willing to save you.
Notice the second arrangement of words :-
This second commandment says Mind makes all our physical coverings (time , matter and space) I AM your COVERING. Mourn what you have lost.
Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Here we see mankind making materials into technological matter to replace that which was lost, the presence of GOD as solid clothing of light. GOD is the source of all physical matter not nature herself, do not make technology that tries to make yourselves happy apart from GOD.
This third commandment says Mind is the source of all power (movement , energy and character) I AM your POWER. Meekly let Me rule through you.
Ex 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of Yahweh thy Elohim, in vain; for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Mankind wants to rule himself arrogantly alone using humanism power. Such a religion of dog eat dog, survival of the fittest is a pointless, evolutionary existence without purpose, fulfilment and moral meaning. Only if we acknowledge GOD's power can we appreciate a MIND greater than ourselves.
The fourth commandment says Mind ceases and rests and refreshes itself in others. I AM your Fruit. Share yourself with Me.
Here we see GOD ceases work, and refreshes Himself in Creation. Why? Because this Mind is a relational Being. This commandment is about the cycles of working and ceasing, which sadly scientists mistake for time. It is a cycle of events, working within yourself, and ceasing so you can share with other Beings. Thus here we see MIND is not alone, nor wants to be alone, but is relational and responding to other Beings.
The last six commandments are fruits of the first three:
My power is packaged into Family.
My power never dies.
My covering over family builds relationships.
My covering belongs to Me.
I AM the WORD that is true. I AM your desire.
When we look at the principles of the ten commandments of GOD, they are really principles or attitudes of love. Love is a summary of them all. 1Jo 4:8 .. for Elohim is love.
So if love is the only attribute of GOD before He created Creation of Matter, Time, Space and other created Beings, what is love all about ?
So consider GOD , the uncaused cause that was always. It had to be showing love.
Love is not knowing things, or knowledge of things. Love is a doing word. Love cares for other minds. So before Creation existed whom was GOD caring for within itself? Love provides. Whom was GOD providing for itself if only a single entity existed, the Father?Love powers and empowers. So whom does love empower if love only existed in the Father and no other entity? Love works and ceases, and refreshes itself in others. Whom does love do this for if no other Being existed apart from the Father? Love is manifested in family. Here we see the first model of Elohim manifested as family of lovers. Love is living continuously. Here we see lovers continuously loving each other in love and collectively applying love and responding to that love. A Family of personalities demonstrating aspects of love. Love builds relationships. thus within the Elohim kind we see love relationships between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Ho 13:4 Yet I am Yahweh thy Elohim from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no Elohim but me: for there is no saviour beside me. Elohim comes from Egypt to take us out of Egypt and save us, saying there is no other Elohim by which we are saved. Since Egypt had a family of deities, is it any wonder GOD took this same concept and revealed to us a different simile, where a FAMILY of LOVE is indeed a uni-plural noun of personalities expressing love as a single Family of Strong Authority.
P: "You cannot equate human love with the Yahweh�s love. We are incapable of loving someone who doesn�t exist, but Yahweh can because He knows the future. He knew you would one day exist, so He was able to love you before your birth. You did not know your children would someday exist, therefore you could not love your children beforehand."
A: "Show me a Bible text where GOD loves somebody who has not existed yet doing things for them, while they are not yet born.�knowing all is not the same as loving..� you write strange human ideas, philosophy...how can one love my unborn babies not yet born?"
P: "I just said above that you cannot love your unborn babies because you are human and cannot even know they will exist. Yahweh, however, knows they will exist and can therefore love them . He loved them enough to bring them into existence and He loved them enough to decide to have His Son slain for their sins even before they were born."
I only need two texts to answer your first request.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
I am sure you would agree that Rev 13:8 is referring to a time before any humans were created or born. Why did Yahweh choose to put in His plan of salvation, even before sin, the death of His Son as a sacrificial lamb? Because He so loved the world. He knew everyone in that future world would sin and would need a Savior."
A: "For GOD so loved the world He gave his Son, while they were sinning... God did not make this statement to Adam before they chose to do any sinning." And certainly God cannot claim to love anything before Creation, you require beings to respond to that love".
P: "I agree that love was functioning before creation. Not between Yahweh, Yeshua and the Holy Spirit, but all within Father Yahweh Himself"
A: "OK, explain how?...love requires other relational Beings..".
P: " Notice this verse:
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
The names of all believers were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world because Yahweh loved them before they ever existed."
A: "That was a brilliant piece of Scripture�yes I agree GOD knows the future from the beginning and the end."
P: " In other words, I am trying to show you that Yahweh could love before there were any people to love. If He could love the world and us before we existed, then He could also love Yeshua before He existed."
A: "Hang on a minute, knowing all things is not the same as loving those which which have yet to come into being. Love is not a principle or being or a state of knowing, love is an action word based on relationships, and those relationships have to be living before love can be assumed to be alive and working. Rev 17:8 is speaking about the all knowing GOD, not the GOD who is loving those who have not existed yet�.how can one do something good for somebody whose not alive yet ? " I think you are confused with love and knowledge.�"
Ge 27:4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; Love is an action word between living relational beings, between a son and a father. Ex 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Love is an action word between living relational beings, between a Saviour and His saved.
Le 19:18 thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Love is an action word between living relational beings, me and other people.
De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,
Love is an action word between living relational beings, me and my Saviour. Ps 40:16 let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.
Love is an action word between living relational beings, me and GOD.
Ps 116:1 � I love the LORD, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications Love is an action word between living relational beings, me and GOD.
Are these any examples of love between GOD and humans who have not existed yet ? Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
This suggests GOD knows who are saved before we are born, and that those yet to be born come into Being loving GOD as a living rational being, but does this verse really say that GOD can love somebody who is not alive yet? I don�t think so.�His love begins upon relational beings once they come into being."
P: " You cannot equate human love with the Yahweh�s love. We are incapable of loving someone who doesn�t exist, but Yahweh can because He knows the future.
A: "Show me a Bible text where GOD loves somebody who has not existed yet doing things for them, while they are not yet born"
P: "Love has always existed in the Father because He IS love."
A: " So how can the Father demonstrate love as a Law if He was alone for a billion years before Matter came to be created from His hand ? "
A: "I suggest that the uncaused Cause in order to demonstrate LAW's that came with the uncaused Cause would have to have been three relational Beings of LOVE in order to demonstrate Love as functional Law. The smallest unit of love is Family, with a provider, nurturer and responder. An eternal single family demonstrates social law, love laws, relationship and moral law."
P: "In terms of humans, the smallest unit of love is a husband and wife. Two are needed, not three. Both husband and wife are providers, nurturers and responders to each other. "
A: " Three are needed� Children like the congregation are different to parents...
P: "Yahweh was all three by Himself."
Hypothesis:Can a Being self love?
This is an interesting Bible question. And it all depends upon how wholly you read Scripture. Taking Scripture in bits and pieces you can make any conclusion you like.
Le 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD
Where is this test explained by Scripture?
How many commandments does Jesus say love refers to ? Two. Not three.
Which of these columns in the table is what Jesus meant? The one on the right.
So this means "self-love", while theoretically possible, is really a form of self indulgence, narcissism and pride. It is NOT love, and should not be called that. You will also know the Bible Hebrew word "self" does not exist, but the concept of "selfishness" does.
Does this not suggest the Father cannot be alone and also showing love ?
P: "I am not saying it is a third law. I am saying "as thyself" is there and needs to be dealt with. It is not a third law saying we must love ourselves. The words clearly tie into Lev 19:34; But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am YHWH your Elohim. In other words, treat your neighbor the way you want to be treated. They also tie into the Golden Rule; And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. (Luke 6:31). If you want to be loved by your neighbor, then love your neighbor."
A: "The text says we love others because we are being loved by GOD"
P: " The text says NO such thing. You can get that from other texts, but not here."
A: " Therefore you cannot love yourself alone."
P: " Untrue."
A: "Likewise GOD cannot function alone either. He requires a Family of personalities in which love is transferred and shared among members of the Godhead."
P: " He functioned alone for no telling how long until He created angels or, in your belief, until He brought forth the Son. Other beings simply provide Him with an opportunity to project His love out from Himself. Before that, His love was within Himself, loving Himself and His future creation."
A: "So we can love ourselves by ourselves. How then do we know if we are being selfish? Or loving self too much ?"
P: "Keep in mind that we are trying to ascertain if YHWH can love being alone. Since He is sinless, there is no selfishness in Him and He cannot love Himself too much. When you discuss man loving alone, it must be hypothetically since we are never alone. We are assuming the existence of man without any other beings present. What would the man do? He would feed himself. He would seek shelter, etc"
A: "What�s the difference between loving self and not sinning by loving self ?"
P: "Is it a sin to feed yourself or cloth yourself? No. Yet, both are acceptable forms of loving one's self."
A: "If we make the concept of loving self a concept, how than do we define sin, being alone?"
P: " Concerning YHWH, it doesn't matter because He cannot sin."
A: "I also note there is no Hebrew word for self, or selfish, so what does this tell us about loving self ?"
P: "Nothing."
A: "We often say sin is transgression of the law ? But is this true ? What do you think ?"
P: "It is definitely true. However, sin goes beyond that. All unrighteousness is sin. Yet, there is no unrighteousness with YHWH. His self love is perfect and righteous."
A: "So if I am loving self, am I sinning� obviously not � you say?"
P: " It depends on what kind of fruit your self love bears. Are you sustaining life by feeding yourself? If yes, then it is not sin. Are you partaking of the pleasures of this world to the neglect of the spiritual life? If yes, then it is sin."
A: "Let�s have a look at the law and see if one can sin alone �.
(1) Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Ps 81:10 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. Ps 81:11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. Ps 81:12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
This is the closest to what happens if we turn from loving GOD to desiring ourselves. Some might call this �loving self� as concept of Scripture as shown above , but not pictured in a single Hebrew word. Correct if I am wrong but �loving self� is a destruction of �God loving us� , it is the totality of pride, evil and selfishness"
P: "I agree. This kind of self love is sin and destructive".
A: "Notice this text:-
((2) Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
(Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. Ho 13:5 � I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought. Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
Again we find what happens if you fail to respond to God's love as a Saviour.�the people becomes self exalted and forget God...this concept is "loving self� not that a single word exists for this, but that it is opposing love....it is a evil where one forgets GOD and does what one's likes."
P: "I agree. This kind of self love is sin and destructive".
A: "So we see if your alone and you fill your mouth alone, or you forget where your power is coming from, your are doing sin�in other words sin is a relationship word. You cannot sin alone, for another Being is always in you and near you. And thus you cannot love alone, there is always another Being in you and near you."
P: "I agree as far as man is concerned. YHWH, however, cannot sin. Therefore, He can love alone."
Summary: I think the issues here can be confused. If there is only one heavenly Being, it is impossible to explain how one solitary Being shows love being alone. Love by definition is a relational concept, requiring other Beings. There was the comment that one needs to feed and clothe yourself. But even these basic things are not done alone. Notice Jesus comments:-
(Mt 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
I sense that there is nothing one does alone. A man is not an island. I also sense that this heavenly kind has always been. That this Heavenly Elohim demonstrated love among themselves before Creation came into being. The Father was never alone.
|
Created by Rob Thompson. Hosted since 10/01/2012. Visitors HOSTED by Prologic, my Son. A thin website.
