See for more themes.
| Q3: Who are these heavenly Beings in the Old Testament?
(1) HYPOTHESIS: Did Abraham see and talk to a literal Jesus in his day?
A: "What does this Bible passage say about Jesus" ?
P: " It says Abraham saw Yeshua�s �day�; that he was not yet 50 years old; and that Yeshua will resurrect before Abraham does. Concerning that last point, let's look at the context of Yeshua's statement. It begins in verse 51 with the thought of eternal life; "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." The Jews thought since Abraham and the prophets were dead, Yeshua must have a devil. The context is eternal life. Then in verse 56 Yeshua says Abraham "rejoiced to see my day." He did not say he saw Abraham as the Jews misunderstood. How did Abraham see Yeshua's day? Hebrews 11:13 says, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." He saw Yeshua's day by faith.
Yeshua then resumed the context of his initial conversation by saying, "Before Abraham was, I am." "Was" is from the Greek "ginomai" meaning, "to come into being, ... to arise." What Yeshua actually meant was, "Before Abraham comes into being (at his resurrection unto eternal life), I will."
Confirmation of this understanding comes to us from Figures of Speech Used in the Bible by E.W. Bullinger, pgs. 521,522. Under the heading "Heterosis (Of Tenses)," subheading "The Present for the Future," he writes, "This is put when the design is to show that some thing will certainly come to pass, and is spoken of as though it were already present." He then lists some examples such as Matthew 3:10b, "therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is [shall be] hewn down;" and Mark 9:31a, "For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is [shall be] delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day." Included among this list of examples of Heterosis is John 8:58. In other words, although properly written, "Before Abraham comes to be, I am," with "I am" in the simple present tense, the meaning points to the future, "Before Abraham comes to be, I will."
Some people believe this verse should be translated, "Before Abraham existed, I existed." However, neither Greek verb is in the perfect tense (past tense). "Was" is in the aorist tense and "am" is in the present tense. Let's look a little closer at "was." Concerning the aorist tense, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament by Dana and Mantey says, "It has time relations only in the indicative, where it is past and hence augmented." The verb ginomai (was) is in the infinitive, not the indicative. Therefore it should not be translated in the past tense. This same reference says of the infinitive, "The aorist infinitive denotes that which is eventual or particular, ..." Abraham will eventually resurrect which is why the Greek uses the aorist infinitive. The meaning is, "Before Abraham comes to be" not "Before Abraham was (or existed)."
A: "Jesus said Abraham saw His day"?
P: "The text does not say Abraham saw Yeshua or that they spoke to each other. You are reading that into the text. Abraham saw Yeshua�s �day� through the eyes of faith just as Moses saw he who is invisible (Yahweh) through the eyes of faith (Hebrews 11:27)".
A: "Jesus said Abraham saw Him and spoke to Him?"
P: " The text does not say Abraham saw Yeshua or that they spoke to each other."
A: "What about this text?"
Ge 18:1 � And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Well these verses say Abraham spoke to YHWH face to face?
P: " You are reading that into the text. Abraham saw Yeshua�s �day� through the eyes of faith just as Moses saw he who is invisible (Yahweh) through the eyes of faith (Hebrews 11:27)."
A: "What about this text?"
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
The word �invisible� does not mean the Being does not exist, nor that it cannot be perceived, but that this power reveals itself visibly in a way that mankind can perceive, even though such a power is beyond mankind's understanding. So Abram did speak to Yeshua in His day, as Yeshua said Abram saw His day.
A: "Can I ask you the complex verb �I was� how similar was it to the same was it was spoken in Exodus 3?
Ex 3:14 And God �Elohim� said unto Moses, I AM �hayah� THAT I AM �hayah�:
A: "If hayah was translated into Greek, how similar would it be to Yeshua� words ?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said �Before Abraham was, I am.
Ex 14 ��ὶ �ἶ��� ὁ ��ὸ� ��ὸ� ����ῆ� �έ���· ἐ�ώ �ἰ�� ὁ ὤ�. ��ὶ �ἶ���· �ὕ��� ἐ��ῖ� ��ῖ� �ἱ�ῖ� ᾿����ή�· ὁ ὢ� ἀ�έ�����έ �� ��ὸ� ὑ�ᾶ�. (Septuagint version)
Here are some verses I found comparing the Greek back to Septuagint translations of John 8:58
A: "It is clear to me that Jesus quoted the words �I AM� as the Hebrew in Exodus says, with the purpose of declaring Himself as heavenly power.
(2) HYPOTHESIS:Is Michael another term for Jesus?
Who is Michael, the heavenly Being in the OT and NT ?
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord "Yahweh" rebuke thee.
Some say when fighting over the devil, Michael said "YHWH" rebuke thee. Some say Michael who is YHWH, rebukes Satan over Moses body.
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (KJV)
Some say Michael is an angel, but "aggelos" does not mean "angel" but
related to Hebrew "malak" means "messenger".
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Some say Jesus come with Michael the archangel, but the text does not say "archangel" is a being, but a function, the "chief of angels" and Jesus comes shouting as the voice of the "chief of angels".
P: "Michael is not another name for Jesus or Yahweh. That is an unprovable assumption. Since Yeshua was not an angel (Hebrews 1 and 2:5), he cannot be Michael."
A: "These verses do not say Michael is an angel, but that Michael is a commander over angels."
P: "I disagree. "archangel" does not mean "commander over angels". It means "chief angel" or "first (in rank) angel", not "chief of angels". Michael is definitely an angel."
A: "1Th 4:16 For Yeshua himself shall descend from heaven
In other words Jesus shouts with a voice of his OT name as warrior of battles�a victorious commander�"
P: "If you want to say "with a shout" means Yeshua will shout and "with the voice" means Yeshua's voice, then you must also include "with the trump" meaning Yeshua blows the trumpet. Yet, Rev 11:15 tells us:
Re 11:15 And the seventh angel "aggelos""malak" (messenger, not angel) sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
"Thus the 7th angel blows the last trump. Since Yeshua does not blow the last trump, we need not believe it is his voice or shout. He is coming with an innumerable number of angels led by Michael. While Yeshua takes the resurrected saints to heaven, Michael stays battling Satan and his angels.
The Bible seems to suggest Gabriel is the highest messenger after Christ, of the angels, possibly replacing Lucifer who fell from that position:
Lu 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
P: "As I said above, it is not "commander OF angels," but "chief angel" (the number one angel). There is not a lot to base one's belief on concerning whether or not Yeshua is Michael."
A: "What about this text ?
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:12-13
P: "This verse says Michael is "one of". That means he is one of several princes who are higher in rank. Yeshua is not "one of the chief princes". He is over Lord over all.
The text does not say "one of" but 'Miyka'el', 'echad','ri'shown' 'sar', meaning 'Michael unit chief prince'
, the translation of Hebrew into English spoils those who read not with child like faith.
A: "What about this text ?
Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the "Captain" (Nagiyd) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
1Sa 9:16 thou shalt anoint him to be "Captain" (Nagiyd) over my people Israel
1Ki 1:35 and I have appointed him to be "Captain" (Nagiyd) over Israel and over Judah
Job 31:37 as a "Captain" (Nagiyd) would I go near unto him.
Isa 55:1 � Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
"The context says Yahweh sends his "captain" to witness to His people.�in person.."
P: "Verse 4 most likely refers to Messiah. The text does not call him a malak. You are reading that into the text simply because he and Michael are both princes and commanders. You quoted 1 Samuel 9:16 above which refers to Saul as captain. Job refers to himself as a prince. Yet, neither Job nor Saul are archangels"
A: "What about this text ?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as prince "sar" of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Here we see PRINCE (sar) of the host (army of angels) of Yahweh, and who is this Being Joshua worships, not an angel.�man was not allowed to worship angels.�the sar must be Yeshua, the prince, commander messenger of armies of angels..
P: "Again you read Yeshua into the text. We are not told who the captain is. It is out of desperation to support an erroneous belief that you must read him into all sorts of verses.
Gen 23:7 'And Abraham stood up, and bowed H7812 himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.'
"Joshua did not worship the captain as though he was some deity just as Abraham did not worship the these men as though they were deities. They both simply bowed down in honor."
"Show me a verse or a Hebrew word that teaches us that a cherub is an angel. I know that a cherub is a heavenly being, but I don't see where it is designated an angel/malak/aggelos. Maybe it is, but maybe it is a different kind of being. Show me a verse where a cherub is used as a messenger to people. Show me any of the above for seraphim as well.
A: "What about this text ?
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
"Obviously a cherub is a messenger (malak) which is also the same as (aggelos) a messenger. Thus a messenger is a function, not the term for a Being."
"Satan is a cherub isn�t He ? The Bible tells us so. And this word is describing His Being. Yes, but is Satan an angel? Even if Satan is an angel and a cherub is an angel, that doesn't make Yeshua an archangel and it doesn't make him Michael."
(3) HYPOTHESIS:Is the 'Messenger of YHWH' Jesus?
Most people are familiar with the text:
Ex 3:2 And the messenger "malak" of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
There are three Hebrew words here suggests at least three heavenly Beings :
If a cherub (angel) was the messenger for YHWH, than why the shift in title from YHWH to ELOHIM ? If the messenger of YHWH was Jesus, it makes sense that ELOHIM is used to reference both Beings belonging to the same heavenly Elohim kind.
P: "A messenger can be a man as well, but if the text is referring to a heavenly messenger, then it was an angel. The Son did not yet exist as a literal being."
A: "Have you not considered the term �angels" in the NT is messenger?"
P: "Heavenly messengers are angels"
A: "Your making Jacob into a liar, he says I saw Elohim, why not just believe His account ? Who was fighting Him, Jesus was who is a member of the heavenly Elohim kind."
P: "You want "Elohim" to be plural, but this is an example where it is clearly singular, one angel. Why would Jacob think a "man" is "Elohim"? As usual, you read "Jesus" into every text you can. I am not making Jacob into a liar. He was simply mistaken. He wrestled a powerful being, a "mighty one/elohim". He obviously realized it was a heavenly being and so used the word "elohim".
"The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself" (Ned.72b; Kidd.41b)." The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, Adama Books, New York, NY, 1986, pg.15. The angels that spoke the law were Yahweh's agents or representatives. As such, they had full authority to not only speak in His name, but to seemingly appropriate His name as in Ex.20:2; "I am Yahweh thy Elohim, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." They were speaking exactly what Yahweh wanted them to say.
A: "Are you believing Jewish Talmud human ideas ?"
P: "This is historical Jewish culture which is derived from Scripture. The Talmud documents the way the Jews kept YHWH's commandments and provides valuable insight in how to understand and keep Torah."
A: "How can a cherub creature represent the power of the great I AM? But Jesus could because he is a messenger of the Father, part of the heavenly Elohim kind."
P: " Yeshua did not become the Father's messenger until he was sent as the messenger of the covenant."
In each of these instances the angel of Yahweh spoke as though he were Yahweh. We know from several other Scriptures that the angel of Yahweh cannot be Yahweh Himself.
A: "Perhaps the messenger of YHWH was.�in the beginning the messenger was with Father, and the messenger was Elohim kind, the messenger was with the Father from the beginning...the messenger became flesh and dwelt with us."
P: "We also have a reference suggesting Yeshua is not the angel of Yahweh. Mt.28:2,3 states, "And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of Yahweh descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: . . . And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Yeshua, which was impaled. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Master lay." The angel could not say, "He is not here" if he were Yeshua. In fact, Heb.1:1 - 2:2 suggest Yeshua was not an angel of any sort. Heb.2:2 tells us the word was "spoken by angels". This is referring to the giving of the law at Mt.Sinai as we have already seen. But Heb.1:1,2 tell us Yahweh spoke through prophets (and angels, Heb.2:2) in the era preceding Messiah. Yeshua was not the spokesman throughout the Old Testament as many like to teach. He is the New Testament spokesman."
How sad to quote a NT text where a different messenger come to the tomb of Jesus to wake Him up. Again this is a good example how easy it is to twist Scripture to whatever you want.
|
Created by Rob Thompson. Hosted since 10/01/2012. Visitors HOSTED by Prologic, my Son. A thin website.
