See for more themes.
| Q2:Comments on the Holy Spirit? I had a little bit of time on Christmas day to respond. I don't believe that Jesus was talking through the Apostle about God being named only by "family." Obviously God has Sons and Daughters. And the family that we are talking about here is the whole family in heaven. Could mean the Godhead and the saints and angels when we get there.
It could also mean that it is talking about us and our citizenship in heaven-now with the Godhead and the saved of all ages. It definately means that we are to be with Jesus in heaven, called as family members of the Godhead-now.
Elijah, they were beautiful quotes, and some parts of them, I see incredible Hebrew meanings in them,
"He yielded up His life a sacrifice, that man should not eternally die. He died, not through being compelled to die, but by His own free will. This was humility. The whole treasure of heaven was poured out in one gift to save fallen man. He brought into His human nature all the life-giving energies that human beings will need and must receive." {5BC 1127.1}
Humility means to look out for others. Jesus laid down His life for His friends.
"with this infinite price." Arrh what cost salvation was, it brings tears to my eyes.
Elijah, you did not comment upon the verse in Luke 1 :35?
Andrew, so you suspect the verse, the only verse in the Bible defining elohiym or GOD, as Family, does not refer to the members of the Godhead, but to the created creatures, such as angels and humans? Fair enough
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
So what is a mystery from the beginning of the world hid in GOD?
In the OT the word "elohiym" is undefined. Jeff Benner just translates this word as "Elohiym powers" and this is a really respectful English meaning for the picture of GOD. In other words there is no English word that comes close in the OT. It is as Paul says "a mystery from the beginning of the world hid in GOD".
Notice Paul is asking believers to see what is the fellowship of the mystery, not so much the Creatorship of the mystery in Jesus.
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
The next verse speaks more to this idea. What is there about the "elohiym powers" made manifest in the wisdom of GOD. That word there in Greek is theos, but in Hebrew would have been "elohiym".
God is going to show Paul a new picture of elohiym powers.
Now if you do a study of the Hebrew word for family, as in the OT or NT, a family does not mean we include created creatures, such as our pets, the term family refers to creatures within its own kind. However the secular meaning of family may reference this idea, and you have brought this up.
Fair enough. It's easy to figure out which meaning it may be referring to,
we simply look up other references, line upon line from Scripture and even the SOP to see if the word Family is indeed a picture of Elohiym itself.
Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
Who is "us" here ?
Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her,
Does this verse not place all the members of the Godhead into "family functional roles"?
So just by using these three Scriptures alone, and nothing else, we can begin to build a picture of GOD, that challenges us.
That is by no means the only glimpses of this picture, but we have begun to add line upon line, to put the little jigsaw pieces into a grand picture of GOD.
Shalom
My mom is already retired and still caring for a friend. They are both healthy which I'm thankful for. It's getting really late here.
So I'm signing off soon for now. What am I struggling with spiritually my family doesn't know. Let's figure it out and deal with all our struggles with sins so we can walk in the light as Jesus is in the light now and forever.
Praise Him Praise Him Praise Him Prrrraise Him!
So I will try again
The Godhead blended our nature with theirs; He took the manhood into God; He bound us up with Himself as one indivisible being; He shared not only our state but our nature and essence; He took from us a human nature that He might give us a Divine one. God bound himself with man in a way He has not bound himself to any other created beings, not even the angels that he created Higher than Man.
As Apostle Peter writes: 1Peter 1:12 To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. (MKJV)
And remember, further, that this mystery of God and man is a mystery for everlasting. As there ever has been, and ever will be, the eternal Son of God, so will there ever remain the eternal Son of Man. This blessed union is incapable of dissolution; our immortality is suspended on its continuance; we could not have life eternal unless God were to be man eternal. The first-fruits will remain with the rest of the harvest in glory.
Put another way The Godhead gave something of itself to join mankind to itself, so the two are eternally bound together in a way no other created being is.
Shalom and have a blessed new year
Here is the Text again:
Does this verse not place all the members of the Godhead into "family functional roles"?
Do you both at least acknowledge there are three members of the Godhead here in this verse?
I am not interested in anything else the text may or may not highlight, because the incarnation of Jesus with humanity is a mystery. Please stick to the topic at hand.
All three members of the Godhead are mentioned by name also in Ephesians 3:15, 16.
And by logical response, all three members of the Godhead is the "us", in Genesis, let us make mankind in our image? Cannot refer to angels as some scholars claim, or as Jeff Benner claims, the us may be the "earth"? Sure glad we have SOP help with our Bibles.
But remember my earlier posts, GOD is not of matter,, time or space.... I am looking into are there any Bible texts that describe the members of GOD, with different personalities of loving? My feeling why GOD created animals into different forms within each kind, is because there is two personalities of loving, the provider love, the responder love. Ellen White calls this the Father's love and Brotherly love.
I term the Hebrew words for love as maleness-love and femaleness-love to acknowledge where these forms of love came from, within mankind during their creation.
Now I am testing Scripture, is there any evidence of the GODHEAD with different personalities of loving?
So both of you need to respond to this Bible text we present.
Shalom
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you. Therefore also that Holy One which will be born of you shall be called Son of God.
Yes, this is the family of God acting in the conception of God the Son into humanity. And Yes the 3 members of the Godhead are taking part in this action. Just as you mention Genesis where God says let us make man in our Image although the Holy Spirit and God The father was not directly involved in the Creation of the man.
I am pleased not to have come across those infidels you mention that want to change the scripture to have angels involved. Because Jesus is the creator as we find out in texts further down in the bible. In Genesis we see the Holy Spirit taking part in creation in some way Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.
I have read another commentator referring to the Holy Spirit as a female in this action. I seem to remember in Psalms and Proverbs God is referred to as female also in some instances.
One other place comes to mind the Baptism of Jesus where we see all 3 members of the Godhead in action: Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to Jordan, to John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John restrained Him, saying, I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me? 15 And answering Jesus said to him, Allow it now, for it is becoming to us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he allowed Him. 16 And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him. 17 And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
As you mention the SOP is a great help to understand better about these things.
Shalom and have a blessed New Year
I have shown the same texts to a few Pastors but receive no reply.
I would caution your reply though, and you must follow carefully what is being presented.
"I have read another commentator referring to the Holy Spirit as a female in this action. I seem to remember in Psalms and Proverbs God is referred to as female also in some instances."
There are no Biblical texts that show the Father is gender male or the Holy Spirit as gender female. The members of GOD, ie the Father and the Holy Spirit, are not of matter, time or space. However, Jesus is of matter, shaped as humanity, and thus is a simile of the human race, the last Adam, as Scripture says, so it seems there was an intentional reason for the Godhead to be related to matter, and thus have a shape like humanity.
Ellen White says the Father's face is similar to Jesus face, in that they choose to be shaped in human form. But all this is speculation on our part, because Scripture is silent on any of this. However what Scripture is not silent on, is the personalities of loving within the family picture of GOD. You have responded correctly to this idea. However we must be careful in how this picture is developed.
Now I would like you to consider why is love is divided into two personalities of loving? Why do parents on earth function in harmony?
Surely Satan wants to destroy family concepts of love that flows from parents, but why does true love function in this way?
You will notice Eve was "built" while Adam was "created", and after that both were "formed" into two different shapes of loving.
This suggests to me, IMO, that femaleness-love is inside the maleness-love, but comes out as it's own unique personality of loving.
We will stop here and ask you to ponder these two personalities of loving, and think about these things.
Shalom and may God bless you.
Come to think of it, this is what Apostle Paul said: 1 Corinthians 13:12-13 In the same way, we can see and understand only a little about God now, as if we were peering at his reflection in a poor mirror; but someday we are going to see him in his completeness, face-to-face. Now all that I know is hazy and blurred, but then I will see everything clearly, just as clearly as God sees into my heart right now. 13 There are three things that remain�faith, hope, and love�and the greatest of these is love.
True the Bible is not silent but as Paul says we are not able to see clearly. Concerning the Female aspects of the Godhead, I only have those from commentaries and therefore I will not build anything on it as it can not be proven from the bible.
Shalom and have a blessed New Year
"True the Bible is not silent but as Paul says we are not able to see clearly. Concerning the Female aspects of the Godhead, I only have those from commentaries and therefore I will not build anything on it as it can not be proven from the bible. "
Sure I agree we see things darkly, but you rely upon commentaries of men, instead of Scripture, these comments regarding the "Female aspects of the Godhead" is a misleading English word, my friend.
Notice the text you use
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
The Greek word translated here into "charity" in the KJV, is "agape", this word in Hebrew would have been "Ahab".
So the greatest of these three things from GOD, is maleness-love.
What is so special about this personality of loving?
This was the personality of loving GOD created for the gender male, Adam.
The gender female, Eve was built out from the man, later as a help-mate.
So what kind of personality of loving, does the gender male, Man, represent, that is darkly something like our heavenly Father, who is not gender male, not of matter, time or space?
Consider these selected few Bible texts of the word "ab", the new name for our Heavenly Father.
Song 6:11 � I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits "Ab" of the valley,
Ge 49:25 Even by the God of thy father "Ab", who shall help thee; and by the Almighty,
Many scholars see "Ab" as a multiple meaning word, some contexts suggest "fruit" and some contexts suggest "Father". However if we choose a different English word that is broad and fits all the sentences, we can remove the multiple meanings scholars think this Hebrew word has.
Song 6:11 � I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits "Ab" "Providers" of the valley,
Ge 49:25 Even by the God of thy father "Ab" "Provider" , who shall help thee; and by the Almighty,...
So IMO, one can suggest the Hebrew word "Ab" broadly means "Provider" for all sentences of context.
Isn't this what a father does? He provides for his family home?
Does the fruit trees also Provide for us, a simile of a Provider?
So logically than the femaleness-love or the fellowship love, or brotherly love the SOP terms, must be the personalities of loving that "respond".
So we can term love into two broad personalities of loving, the Provider kind and the Responder kind. And as Paul says, we see darkly, the greatest of these personalities of loving is the Provider Love.
Now on its own such a "line", is weak, but each jigsaw piece is added line upon line, until though we see darkly, we begin to see a complete picture of what love is within the personalities of loving. We will stop here so you can respond...
God bless your interest in this grand picture of love from GOD.
What a wonderful God we serve.
You are right that there are three members in the family of GOD. Jesus is the Son of GOD but also the Son of Man.
Jonathon Sarfetti , a member of Creation Ministries International, does many wonderful U tube videos on various topics, and I remember him saying Jesus does "collective love" while the others do "parental love". This is an interesting notion, he doesn't elaborate further.
However, this our theory of faith developed independently from Scripture over the years, and now, I find others I respectfully agreeing with it. I am not sure what collective love means, but IMO Jesus showed the ability to both a Provider of Love and a Responder of Love. Another aspect of Responder Love is that it Receives, and Provider Love, Gives.
Thus you cannot have a Church full of only those giving love, neither can you have a Church full of those only receiving love, you have to have a Church both providing and responding, until we become a single source of love, not many people doing their own style of love as they please.
The reason why we call Provider Love Maleness-love, and Responder Love Femaleness-love, is because IMO this is why the Family of GOD created mankind as gender male and gender female, with two unique personalities of loving. I am sure we all agree in heaven, the biological function of procreation is switched off as a gene, but the personalities of loving remain in each kind of person for eternity.
I will allow time for Elijah to respond as well.
Think about these things. Provider Love is a love that provides, and serves. Responder Love is a love that responds and thus nurtures. When the Gender Male establishes his house filled with provisions, it does not become a home of loving until his wife responds and networks with this love, and the two personalities of loving become a single unit.
There is a strange, Hebrew concept about these personalities of loving's, when two persons are married. They become cardinally ONE being. They are ONE family. There is a single source of LOVE.
Le 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
This verse is profound in what it is saying. Many think when we marry the two become united, harmonious and the two styles of loving blend. But the Hebrew does not suggest this. When we marry there is a single flow of love from the family. Jews dislike modern Christian views of GOD because they see "three gods" having "three independent sources of love". The Hebrew, IMO does NOT teach this. There is instead a single source of love, the members of the Godhead are cardinally one Being as love is concerned. If this view of love is correct, we could predict there would be no or rarely few texts where the Holy Spirit loves with providing love, and texts where the love from the Holy Spirit is only responding, and many texts where the love is responding in relational terms. In other words the loving response of the Holy Spirit is relational always with another Divine Being, community love is what we should see, in Scripture.
Let me give you an example of this kind of loving in Scripture:
Isa 63:8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love "abahuh" and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
There are at least two members of the Godhead mentioned here, Jesus-YHWH, our Saviour, and the Holy Spirit is named with both functional descriptors "holy + spirit", which is rare in the OT. What is interesting is the term "his femaleness-love" or "his responding love". Notice the community setting of the term "his love". Is not our Saviour a great Provider of salvation for Israel?
But who did they vex? The Holy Spirit, who responds to that Providing Love, but sadly the follows of Jesus, do not respond well to His Providing Love.
Instead the Hebrew writes this as "His Responding Love". Why does the Hebrew write this way? Because there is NOT two members of loving here doing the love, there is a single source of love, here saving Israel, even though two members of the Godhead, are at least mentioned.
Now many of you will find this strange, so we will stop so you can consider what this picture of love is saying. Please comment on what this verse Isaiah 63: 8-10, is suggesting to you. Please comment on what Lev 18:8 is also suggesting to you.
Line upon line, we join the jigsaw pieces of the picture of God together. Shalom
I don't have to explain my dealings with others or God because no need to erroneously justify myself. I have good perception without words and I must be careful with this valuable gift.
I was just thinking about that Text in Isaiah 63:8-10. I suggest that Christ does all He can to save and bless as much as He can.
We don't respond as well as God would have liked, but that doesn't negate that He is mighty to save, "The Mighty One will save." Zeph. 3:17 NKJV. One thing I do forgetting those things that are past I press onward to the prize of the upward call of Christ Jesus our Lord. My wording.
Yes and Beloved Brother Rob... We must have a total transformation. And accept His grace His mercy His love His kindness and His forgiving love and all for His glory... Nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ. Is the promise that is Yes and Yes in Christ Jesus our Lord. All the promises are Yes and Yes in Christ Jesus. Trust Him more. It is a 24/7 calling which is worthy of all acceptance.
Not leaning on our own understandings. In all ways acknowledge Him. & He shall direct your paths.
Why do you think Christ's followers don't respond well to God's abundant love? It's not God's fault, He did NO wrong. I'm happy today because JESUS DOETH ALL THINGS WELL... Happy man... That's truthfully great and something we can rest fully on. Step out into the waters. & let God part the sea because we can go to heaven soon. Where sin, sadness, disease, death, crying, sorry, and pain will be NO MORE. Hallelujah!
While I liked your comments, you didn't really discuss how these verses begin to add line upon line, another jigsaw piece in our picture of GOD.
Perhaps too, it's also Elijah's turn to reply also, and other readers who are following these comments.
How many years of patient toil on EGW did it take her husband Mr White to learn their was even a Holy Spirit as a Divine Being? 45 years.
Mrs White says the nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery, silence is golden, for a reason. The subject is hidden behind fuzzy translations, poetry similes and verses people have not seen before.
Le 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
This verse is speaking something different to how we as Westerns think.
God also invented marriage in Eden, as well as two personalities of loving.
The couples are NOT considered as two couples in harmony, but more like two halves united as a single body of love. This is what this verse is saying to me from a Hebrew viewpoint.
We often joke, my wife is my better half, and this
is profound even though we don't know what we are really saying.
It also makes love into a single spring, rather than different independent love comes each couple, it is more like a single source of love coming from the home. Again this is what this verse is saying to me, IMO, about how Hebrew view point works. And why do we have to see things, like salvation from a Hebrew viewpoint? Because this is the language and the words that came from Eden. There is some evidence by some scholars, including Jeff Benner
in his Ancient Hebrew Research Center, that Hebrew is the Mother of all Languages. I will prove these things also latter.
For now let's consider what this means, when we place love functioning in a family.
Well in humans in Hebrew tents, Abram and Sarah worked together as one, there are several words to describe Abram. There was Baal, meaning the "master" of his wife, and "Adown" meaning the "foundation ruler" over his family community. When you came to the tent, you came via the Provider's Love first, and the Family home Responded to you as a visitor. That is how love works in the married family home.
What about for divine family members of GOD, how does it work. Apparently it seems along simile lines. Consider this verse:
Isa 63:8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel (malak) "messenger" of his presence saved them: in his love (ahabuh) "femaleness-love" and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Looking into community love, is difficult, because when you have two members of the Godhead in the same passage, we only see a single flow of love, rather than different independent source of love.
Jesus-YHWH here is our Saviour, the provider of love, the "he" in this verse because such love provides.
The word "angel of his presence" has the Hebrew word "malak" and should read "messenger of his presence", the Hebrew word for "Angel" is "cherub" and it's not there. Jesus is often a "messenger of His Father" also the Holy Spirit is often a "messenger for Jesus", so this term alone in a community setting is confusing.
"in his femaleness-love" is interesting too. The next verse identifies the Holy Spirit by name, It's also confusing too. Whose love is whose? I don't think it really matters, since both are written here, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the Hebrew way of writing it as "his femaleness-love" is correct. It shows the picture of God's love is a relational community effort, that Israel failed to respond to.
Andrew, you asked why did Israel fail to respond? I don't know.
Perhaps this verse might help you
Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
God's love is relational, but not a separate flows of love, but a single flow of love, even though both provider love and responder love are mentioned, they flow as "his femaleness-love", as a single source of love.
Please comment on how you see the Godhead showing this love, what it might mean to you. There are many examples of this. Shalom
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